Marihemp - The Marijuana and Hemp Network Politics: Archived Messages #52200 to #52299


N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws
Message #52200 posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 27, 2003 06:17:15 ET

Starting yesterday N.Y. started their fucked up law. Your now not allowed to smoke in bars. I can handle letting non-smokers have their space, but this is getting ridiculous.Barrooms and smoking go hand and hand, I always felt.Bunch of flaming idiots up in Albany...D.C. as well.The government is too much in our personal lives. I'ld like to put my Winston out on Gov. Pataki's forehead. Dickhead




Re: take off the ",..." at the end of it. nfm
Message #52201 posted by sara (Info) July 27, 2003 06:20:32 ET
In Reply to post #52196: take off the ",..." at the end of it. nfm posted by pisshead80 (Info) July 26, 2003 19:57:56 ET

TA...



Re: Torogs warrior spirit
Message #52202 posted by sara (Info) July 27, 2003 06:32:37 ET
In Reply to post #52198: Re: Torogs warrior spirit posted by sara (Info) July 27, 2003 06:12:55 ET

No dont fuck off,tell me why i shouldnt be laffing,or attacking,seemingly without provocation.Or what do you know about torogs warrior spirit,that i dont????



FUCK AMERIKA ?
Message #52203 posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 27, 2003 06:35:08 ET

Has anybody ever read this book? Fuck Amerika by Jerry Rubin? I had it years ago along with Steal this Book by Abbie Hoffman. They were dynamite books. I wonder if they're still in print? Does anyone remember these?



Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws
Message #52204 posted by ismellbacon (Info) July 27, 2003 13:43:48 ET
In Reply to post #52200: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 27, 2003 06:17:15 ET

Barrooms and smoking go hand and hand, I always felt

I go to bars to drink, not inhale your poison


The government is too much in our personal lives

Go outside. I have the right to go into any bar i want, why should i have to breath your fumes? It's not enough to give non smokers their space. I want to be able to go anywhere and be able to breath, I consider it my right.
Bartenders don't deserve lung cancer at 35 because of where they work. If i open a business and expose my employees to say sarin or cyanide or asbestos i am legally liable. This is no different. Smoking is dying out anyway. Sorry i just don't care about smokers, you have enough rights. I think anyone caught smoking in a car with a child should be arrested, so should anyone who puffs in a house with kids.
Actually I think you should have to restrain your smoking to private residences. I should not have to walk thru a cloud to get into an office building. Even having someone walk by my on the street with a nasty blue cloud is offensive. I toke in private, I don't consider my right to toke in public, you fuckers can hide your habits now too.




Re: America's Uday and Qusay Conjuring Trick
Message #52205 posted by ismellbacon (Info) July 27, 2003 14:06:58 ET
In Reply to post #52184: Re: America's Uday and Qusay Conjuring Trick posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 26, 2003 17:37:04 ET

After 10 minutes in the vehicle, I was taken out again. There were journalists with cameras. The group of Americans untied me, then made me lie on the road again. Then, in front of the cameras, they tied my hands and feet all over again and put me back in the vehicle." It was “show and tell” time for the American media,

Alot of iraqis say they hated saddam, but hate the way the americans are acting more. I knew it when I saw them raise the US flag on top of saddams statue. Gee I wonder why they think the US is conquering them? How come parading US POWs was a war crime but every time the cameras are near this shit happens. I would rather be captured by iraqis than americans. The iraqis torture less.


The harsh reality is that nearly all of the human Iraqi command, control, communications and intelligence structure is still intact, and currently directing extremely professional counter-insurgency operations against American and British invasion forces.


But i thought the war was "over"? LOL its like the taliban is described as "remenants" meanwhile they control most of the country outside of kabul. Iraqis/afghans can fight a 25 year war no problem. Will the americans be able to stomach it, or more importantly, will they still be able to pay attention?
It is pretty fishy that both brothers were together. Sports teams don't even fly on 1 plane anymore to reduce the risk of the whole team getting wiped out. So why would saddams 2 heirs be together? But I still belive just because America will look pretty dumb if uday shows up on tv next week.




Re: I agree with you Peaceful Toker
Message #52206 posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 27, 2003 15:17:25 ET
In Reply to post #52197: I agree with you Peaceful Toker posted by ALucidCannabisNexus (Info) July 26, 2003 22:54:50 ET

"I'm really impressed after reading what you have to say."

Hehe, Joe Vialls deserves the credit, but thanks.

"I knew it when I saw them raise the US flag on top of saddams statue."

That whole "toppling of Saddams statue" thing's been proven to be a fixed sham (all actors)... i'll try to find the article about it.

Peace




Re: take off the ",..." at the end of it. nfm
Message #52207 posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 27, 2003 15:46:37 ET
In Reply to post #52201: Re: take off the ",..." at the end of it. nfm posted by sara (Info) July 27, 2003 06:20:32 ET

How do you post links?



The Real Dangers Of Smokeing, The gange!
Message #52208 posted by purplehazemaster (Info) July 27, 2003 17:32:21 ET

ok, well marijuana cannot be over dosed, like crack or smack! A test done by the pigs , was with a dog...theyy fed the mut 8 lbs. of the sticky green, and it lived. You cannot over dose from marijuana.

Ok, 2. marijuana makes u dumb as a rock. I have heard some people have gotten lower grades in school after using marijunana, but those are the people who are already dumb.

Marijuana makes your sex cells bad! Yeah thats just a ploy to make you think you can never hae kids if u rock the gange! LIES, LIES , LIES, marijauana does NOT make you impotent. NEWS FLASH** I know a couple who had many healthy kids, and they burn the sticky icky icky daily. how do you explain this?

The ONLY proven, danger from marijauana is that the smoke over LONG ass fucking periods of time, fucks your lungz and MAY give you cancer. IF you really care that much about this. it can easily be stopped by simply not puffing the magic dragon, EAT IT! The high lasts longer, and is harmless.

Marijuana does impare ur ability to use machines and shit, but smart toka'z wont play with table saws when there blazin'.

marijauna is perfectly safe and can be made safer by eating it. The only reason they lie about fucking tar and all that fucking shit is, the heath teachers nead another topic to cover (weed) to finish the year.

let me end my essay with a question.

"Why is when someone dies of lung cancer, its always for example, Bob , Oh bob died, that man was such a hard worker, but he smoked 3 packs a day, he smoked him self to death." How come its never oh bob smoke 3 joints a day, or an ounce a day? HUH!? ANSWER THAT?more people die from cigatettes then from the sticky icky icky green, im not hating on tobacco toka'z but, im just makin a point. PLease reply feedback. Im interested on what u have to say.
peace out
-PUFF THE MAGIC DRAGON






































Re: Torog...
Message #52209 posted by hydrosmoke (Info) July 27, 2003 18:49:05 ET
In Reply to post #52180: Re: Torog... posted by canadahomeofkb (Info) July 26, 2003 17:09:11 ET

Thanks, I try.....peace.

Hydro




agreed
Message #52210 posted by hydrosmoke (Info) July 27, 2003 19:46:27 ET
In Reply to post #52204: Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws posted by ismellbacon (Info) July 27, 2003 13:43:48 ET

I see no justification for forcing people into inhaling cigarrette
smoke just because they want to go have a drink. Like I always
say, I think that whatever you do in the privacy of your own home is
your own business, but as soon as you bring it around others who
don't consent to it being around them, you are no longer within
your rights, you are infringing on the rights of others. Although I do
believe it should be up to the owner of the bar as to whether or not
smoking should be allowed in there. If it is your bar, and you want
it to be a place where people can drink and smoke, and people
know that it is such a place, then it is your right to have it as such.
Peace.

Hydro




Re: agreed
Message #52211 posted by pisshead80 (Info) July 27, 2003 20:52:23 ET
In Reply to post #52210: agreed posted by hydrosmoke (Info) July 27, 2003 19:46:27 ET

that's fine, but why does there have to be a total ban? can't there be a restaurant where smoking will be expected, and people can go and smoke if they choose to?

we live in a republic, don't we?




Re: the usual lies continue like my smoking
Message #52212 posted by lovedaherb (Info) July 27, 2003 21:14:34 ET
In Reply to post #52169: Re: and even more so than anyone thinks posted by Hattusili (Info) July 25, 2003 13:22:04 ET

I know that right Hattusili, after all the fuckin warnings clinton and bush and the cia and the fbi received, the fbi was already investigating arab students learning how to fly planes and bush receieved a memo on august 6, 2001 talking about the threat to america. I can go on and on but its joint rolling time so everyone take care in this fucked up world, at least we all have maryjane to help!
;-)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Peace and Smoke all!




Re: agreed
Message #52213 posted by ismellbacon (Info) July 27, 2003 21:21:42 ET
In Reply to post #52211: Re: agreed posted by pisshead80 (Info) July 27, 2003 20:52:23 ET

that's fine, but why does there have to be a total ban? can't there be a restaurant where smoking will be expected, and people can go and smoke if they choose to?

Open a cigarette smoking place, okay maybe. But only an owner operated 1 man operation. Not a bar or restaurant. I have no problem with cigar lounges, that is the purpose. But I should be able to go to any bar/restaurant i want without breathing smoke. The purpose there is to eat or drink. Do smokers get their own laundry mats and bowling alleys too? Because I shouldn't have to go 5 blocks away when i live next to the smoking establishment.
As an employer you can't poison your employees. I cant open a coal mine, and force people to breath the dust with no mask. Why should anyone work in a deadly enviroment? Bar workers get lung cancer at a very young age.




Re: Surprise, more lies from bush!!!
Message #52214 posted by lovedaherb (Info) July 27, 2003 21:42:29 ET
In Reply to post #52206: Re: I agree with you Peaceful Toker posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 27, 2003 15:17:25 ET

wow, that was an excellent post peaceful toker, also remember at the time right before the supposed killings of saddams sons, the Bush Adminstration was being bashed from the WMD issue and i very much agree it was used to boost moral esspecially for the 6th infantry. The day CNN reported this i was like hold on only one boby guard for 2 sons, i dont think so, and why were they together. I also think bush is afraid of the polls in america showing less support for his crap. Im sure tony blair needed some relief from his bashings too, like with his dr. kelly crisis. Again, ty for extra knowledge peaceful toker and you have a good night.

Peace and Smoke all!




posting this link again, NWO stuff
Message #52215 posted by pisshead80 (Info) July 27, 2003 22:07:18 ET

www.propagandamatrix.com/archive
www.infowars.com
www.gregpalast.com
www.democracynow.org

for people who don't know what the bilderberg group is, or the trilateral commission, or the CFR or the world bank/IMF, here is a good resource to start with. this is just a stepping stone. "911: the road to tyranny" by alex jones is a good start, as well as www.gregpalast.com.

i highly suggest "the best democracy money can buy" by greg palast for how the election was stolen, and how the imf/world bank operates around the world. it's very detailed.

you can independently verify this, and inside the archives are links to mainstream articles discussing these groups.

it should piss people off that there is a world government at hand that meets privately, of which the banking elite and heads of all types of media meet and discuss world policy, while keeping the general public pretty disinformed of the entire thing.

i had never known a thing about these groups until about a year and a half ago, and there's a whole other world i would say most people probably aren't aware of.

i'm posting this because i was watching soccer tonight at a friend's apartment. and it was in seattle, and there was an attendance of over 66,000 people i think. and it was the highest attendance ever in the west coast or something, and i watched the people as they would get pissed at a bad call, or yell and scream and eat popcorn.

and it pains me to think that these people go on about their days, and have no clue that every republican president for many decades have at one time or another met at bohemian grove and worshipped a giant owl. and when you tell them about, they are so preconditioned and mindless they just dismiss it. the level of brainwash on a mass scale is outrageous.

for anyone who hasn't, please go through and read about the IMF/World Bank, and about the IMF riot and how entire economies of countries are destroyed by these bankers and the peoples' resources stolen as the bank spirals the country into endless debt. it's so insane, and most people don't know about it.

they'll hit a cold hard reality when the shit these globalists pull all around the world start to hit home.


"Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are."
--Benjamin Franklin (one of the countries first terrorists according to FEMA)


"In Germany they came first for the communists, and I didn't speak up, because I was not a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak out for me."
--Martin Niemoeller


whether people are aware or not, we're either headed towards another revolution, or restoration to be more exact, or one of the most enslaved modern day feudal societies under a world government where you have no bill of rights or constitution, total enslavement to the state, but it will be necessary, because after all, we're only constantly told to expect more terrorism. but the government is doing the terrorism? it's very sick and twisted.

we must restore the republic, and a main part of that is the information war. people need to be more concerned about their world and their government.




Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws
Message #52216 posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 27, 2003 22:10:48 ET
In Reply to post #52204: Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws posted by ismellbacon (Info) July 27, 2003 13:43:48 ET

Man, second hand smoke is not in the same league as breathing asbestos or that other crap dipshit. No one ever died from it, and if anyone told you they did...they're lying to you. I'm not ashemed I smoke...in fact, here's "a nasty blue cloud right in your big ugly face ismelldicksweat ha ha ha...good one



Re: the usual lies continue like my smoking
Message #52217 posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 27, 2003 22:58:05 ET
In Reply to post #52212: Re: the usual lies continue like my smoking posted by lovedaherb (Info) July 27, 2003 21:14:34 ET

There's proof showing that the Bush adm. was planning their invasion of Afghanistan before 9/11 happened.

In truth, the invasions of the whole "axis of evil" (Iraq, Iran, North Korea) and take-over of the middle east was planned before 9/11... of course Bush knew about it beforehand, it was orchestrated by him, his buddy Ariel Sharon, and the rest of their psychotic, world domination-hungry friends. His behavior on the day of the attacks and the lies and cover-ups (fake Bin Laden video; 9 "hijackers" found alive; bombs planted in the buildings - the real cause of the collapses; no investigation allowed, etc., etc., etc.) make it too obvious. How so many people haven't figured it out yet is beyond me... they must be glued to their tv sets 24/7.

"take care in this fucked up world, at least we all have maryjane to help!"

The feeling is mutual :) Of course, they want to take that away from us, too >:(




Re: posting this link again, NWO stuff
Message #52218 posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 27, 2003 23:08:04 ET
In Reply to post #52215: posting this link again, NWO stuff posted by pisshead80 (Info) July 27, 2003 22:07:18 ET

Thanks again for the links and info. I'm still trying to figure out all this nonsense.

Peace





Re: Surprise, more lies from bush!!!
Message #52219 posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 27, 2003 23:16:57 ET
In Reply to post #52214: Re: Surprise, more lies from bush!!! posted by lovedaherb (Info) July 27, 2003 21:42:29 ET

That's exactly what this guy is saying:

"Official Story on Deaths of Saddam's Sons "Wags the Dog"
by Michel Chossudovsky

The "deaths" of the sons of Saddam Hussein in a high profile "shoot-out" in the northern city of Mosul arrive at a most opportune moment for President Bush and his entourage.

Political assassination is tied into the logic of war propaganda. The killings were designed by the Pentagon to uphold the shaky legitimacy of the Anglo-American military axis in the face of Iraqi armed resistance to occupation forces. In the words of President Bush: "their deaths show that the former Iraqi regime will not be coming back."

By mobilizing media attention Worldwide on Saddam's two sons, the Mosul event has served to distract Western public opinion from the broader issue of war crimes committed by the Bush administration and its indefectible British ally, not to mention the mysterious death of David Kelly, the senior MI6 official who "pulled the plug" on Tony Blair.

The Mosul shoot-out serves to "reduce the heat" and conceal the lies: "The death of the two sons was greeted with jubilation in Washington, where President George Bush has been under growing political pressure..." (Washington Post, 24 July 2003)

While the entire Western news chain is inundated with the same unsavory (syndicated) stories on Saddam's derelict son Uday, the more substantive issue of phony intelligence and WMDs is relegated to the inner pages of the tabloids.

The fact, amply documented, that the war was based on a fabricated pretext is now regarded as a mere technical detail: a 16 words "error" which inadvertently slipped into the President's State of the Union address."




State's BS Smoking Laws...Ha-Ha..
Message #52220 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 03:09:18 ET
In Reply to post #52216: Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 27, 2003 22:10:48 ET

..Loudmouth LeftyToker has an opinion on this topic..
..Time to wake up and smell the fucking bullshit!
!!
"Man, second hand smoke is not in the same league as breathing asbestos or that other crap dipshit. No one ever died from it, and if anyone told you they did...they're lying to you. I'm not ashemed I smoke...in fact, here's "a nasty blue cloud right in your big ugly face ismelldicksweat ha ha ha...good one "

..Tokendaddy..I hear ya.(I dont know about the "dicksweat" thing though?),,but,,.I felt the same way when California started this shit several years ago.
.I was more than pissed,and disgusted...I was a smoker for over 30 years,but I was a polite smoker.
and I can understand how people would not want to be exposed to others tobacco clouds..
..BUT,,I say,,Gimme a fuckin' break!,,If someone is out drinkin' at some bar,and they are
complaining about the cigarette smoke,,then they can go home and get drunk in their own
anal retentive smoke free place!..
..This New York law is NUTHIN!..You cant smoke in ANY building in CA!,It's been that way for years!
..
..A couple of years ago,I went up to Lake Tahoe,which is in the Nevada/California border..Casinos on the
California side,,no smoke,,but walk 20 feet over to the Nevada side,and people are hackin' 'em down everywhere.
.
.It's just something ya gotta get used to,,(but I do agree,that a bar is a place for cigarettes!,what's next,,booze-less bars??)

.OK,,back to this "second hand smoke" fuckin' shit!...
Just living in LA,,is like smokin' a half pack a day on the average,(I aint jokin',)
.I think that these 'second hand smoke' people,,are fucking idiots!..
.this is not to say,that I dont somewhat agree with a 'no smoking' thin g in certain places where people HAVE to go,,but when it comes to bars and such,,,the law becomes idiotic and fucked...Again!..If you want to go out drinkin',then I have very little sympathy for those who complain about smoke in bars!,,go to a smoke free bar,or buy a bottle,and go home and get plastered !If you are too much of a wimp to withstand a bit of tobacco smoke at a bar,then why dont you ask your fuckin liver what it thinks of the booze you are forcing on it!,,floating your gizzard in alcohol aint no healthy virtue,,(but I guess drinkin' is not equivilent to smoking in this way)?)

..Alot of the second hand smoke whiners are the type of people who cant be comfortable anywhere!
Something is always 'wrong',in their world,and they need something to blame it on...If it wasnt second hand smoke ,it would be something like 'Second hand breath',,or second hand fart!,,and these are usually the same shitheads,who will get into their SUV,and be on their cell phone,and cause you to miss the lite.)?(
..Second hand smoke loudmouth idiots are doing more harm to themselves with blind,misdirected concern/stress ,than any second hand whiff of tobacco smoke could ever do to compromise their health!,,You wanna talk about unhealthy air? ,well why dont we start talkin' about deisel engines,which are mostly exempt from pollution control.Most of your second hand smoke squackers are probably drivin' big ol' bogart SUVs....
..fuck...

..I was a heavy smoker for over 30 years!..Old Golds,and Newport 100s.
.a couple of years ago,I got an infection in my lung..I was almost dead when I finally checked myself into the emergency room.I was in the hospital for over a month.They had to remove about a third of my left lung.It was not cancer.If I had not had this happen,I would probably still be smoking,,needless to say,I will never smoke tobacco again...
Tobacco is stupid hedonistic slow suicide...nicotine is kinda like affordable legal crack!




I could'nt of said it better
Message #52221 posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 28, 2003 05:06:35 ET
In Reply to post #52220: State's BS Smoking Laws...Ha-Ha.. posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 03:09:18 ET

I totally agree with you lefty. Where does it end? This is another tactic to control us, maybe I'm being paranoid. I agree tobacco is a slow suicide and I do plan on quitting but its my choice.

Yea. the dicksweat thing was a little too much, I get revved up sometimes reading the posts




It's a book!
Message #52222 posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 28, 2003 05:27:21 ET
In Reply to post #52203: FUCK AMERIKA ? posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 27, 2003 06:35:08 ET

I guess everyones too young to remember these books, I'm beginning to feel old. Well anyway they were books about the counterculture,"Fuck Amerika" if I remember right was basically about politics and "Steal this Book" was about how to travel and live without much money(it was a yippie handbook). It told you everthing from how to get free airline tickets to eating for free. It came in really handy when I hitchedhiked to San Fransico back in the late seventies.



Re: I could'nt of said it better
Message #52223 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 05:42:16 ET
In Reply to post #52221: I could'nt of said it better posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 28, 2003 05:06:35 ET

..Tokendaddy...you are a cool heavy cat....and I'm not just sayin' that because you agree with me.

.You are right,,it's your choice...I planned to quit for many years.If I had not almost died,I doubt I would have quit.
..Quittin' cigarrettes takes some true and heavy things within ones mind and inner self!..I always figured I could do it "when I wanted to",,or "when I was ready",,,..but that is tommorowland thinking..I'm lucky I almost was DEAD!
..That's what it took to make me stop!..struggling for breath!
.. after a person is DEAD,,it's too late to quit,I guess you gotta quit when you're DEAD!

.Sorry,,I could tell you alot more about my near death experience,and I would be glad to tell you more if you want..
.
.we will all quit someday..
.
.
..indeedddd




Re: It's a book!..."Too Young"..
Message #52224 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 05:57:02 ET
In Reply to post #52222: It's a book! posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 28, 2003 05:27:21 ET

"I guess everyones too young to remember these books, I'm beginning to feel old. .."

..Tokendaddy,,,"how young is 'too young'?..I remember that particular book quite well!..
...I was born in 56..Do you still feel "old"?
...ever read "Be Here Now"??
..I'm an old seasoned professional West Coast Hippie..
.how old are you?




..obvious?.simple?,,idea about voting machines.
Message #52225 posted by dana west (Info) July 28, 2003 08:05:49 ET


.
..OK...in case you dont know,,we are going to have these new "touch screen",computer voting machine terminals.
..They will be everywhere soon,,
,,and I dont know about you,,but I think the whole thing is completely ,
,obviously,
undoubtedly,,
,Absolutely,,,,going to be more than ripe for utter corruption!,,
,so,,,
,what would be wrong with giving each and every voter,a reciept?,
.you know,,just like a lottery ticket,or ATM reciept??,,each with it's own unique number and codes,,an actual piece of paper that documents how you voted,,who you voted for,,etc..
.This would be very simple and good,with exsisting technology!
..Why not???
..What's wrong with having a reciept for when,and how a person voted???are we to assume that somehow the technology is not availiable???..
..fuck,,they could set up a state lottery in less than a years time.)?(

.but,,we know,that such a simple thing as a paper reciept will NOT happen,because a paper trail would immediatly bust the manipulators of the empire!
.welcome to 666.
.you wont even be able to vote soon,unless you have some type of computer swipe-able card like your drivers license,or ATM card.
..just watch,,and then,all your ID will become completely universal.Sort of a 'World ID Card'.,,kinda like a new version of your social security #,(which you already need if you want to do anything!)

..things are fucked!..
.
..just watch as they get even fuckeder!

d




..thick..but worth the time to read...
Message #52226 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 08:29:28 ET

..I think Justin Raimondo is an excellent and outstanding writer...
He's not an easy read by any means,,(but look who's talkin'.)
...I think this particular article is well worth wading through !..


WHO LIED US INTO WAR?
Let's find out.
by Justin Raimondo

It was a moment of harmonic convergence, when the fibbers of the left and the
prevaricators on the right were aligned in perfect cosmic harmony. Never mind who lied
us into war, averred impeached presidential liar Bill Clinton:

"What happened, often happens. There was a disagreement between British intelligence and
American intelligence. The president said it was British intelligence that said it. . . . British
intelligence still maintains that they think the nuclear story was true. I don't know what was true,
what was false. I thought the White House did the right thing in just saying, 'Well, we probably
shouldn't have said that.' You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are president. I mean,
you can't make as many calls as you have to make without messing up once in awhile. The thing we
ought to be focused on is what is the right thing to do now. That's what I think."

Leading Democrats were shocked, but Clinton's comments are hardly surprising to the nonpartisan mind.
For a confirmed sociopath there is no such thing as truth or falsehood: all that matters is what advances his
ambitions and momentary desires. What's astonishing is that the neocons are wearing Clinton's
endorsement of lying tactics as a badge of honor.

Opponents of the war, sniffs Charles Krauthammer, are trying to "change the subject." � the
subject being, in his view, the improved "strategic realities" of the postwar Middle East. The former
Liar-in-Chief, avers Krauthammer, "has injected a note of sanity" into the discussion, because

"Everywhere you look the forces of moderation have been strengthened."

If that is the message Krauthammer and his fellow war weenies are getting from the news of the latest
casualties in Iraq � five killed in the last 24 hours � then they'd better check to see if their
antennae are out of kilter. As shouting Shi'ites rally in their thousands, demanding that we get out of their
country or face the consequences, one has to ask: These are voices of "moderation"?

Oh, but that is "changing the subject," which ought to be focused exclusively on the "moral reality" of
Saddam's overthrow. Excuse me, but it is not Krauthammer's prerogative to determine what is the subject.
That privilege, if it belongs to anyone, should go to Lynn Bradach, the mother of a Marine killed in Iraq
over the weekend, who says:

"I want everything to come out about why decisions were made. And I don't want to hear, `Well, you
know what, it's over now, the decision was made.' You know what? If you make a wrong decision,
you have to pay for that. I want to make sure that changes are made or people are held accountable
for what happened."

Krauthammer and the rest of the Chickenhawk Brigade have no right to lecture anyone, especially not Ms.
Bradach and the families of the fallen. Everything they said about the aftermath of this war has turned out to
be flat out wrong: they said we'd be welcomed as "liberators," but a look at the growing list of American
casualties quickly dispels that illusion. They said we'd find the infamous "weapons of mass destruction"
� but we've now searched every single suspect site, and the holy grail of WMD still eludes us.
They denied the protests of their own officer corps, who said we'd need more troops for the occupation,
because it wasn't politically convenient to acknowledge what they knew to be true. In light of their dismal
record, there is only one decent course open to Krauthammer and the rest of the War Party, at this point,
and that is to shut up..

The only "moral reality" that matters, to Americans, is the one where their sons and daughters are dying
every day. The parents have a right � nay, a sacred duty Ð to ask: did they die for a pack of lies?
Increasingly, they are asking just that question, which is why deputy defense secretary and leading
warmonger Paul Wolfowitz was recently queried by Fox News reporter Brit Hume:

"Well, what about public support for the war? Don't you believe that whatever military significance
it may or may not have, that politically, these continuing reports of American deaths are...

"WOLFOWITZ: The reports of deaths are terrible. Any American death is a terrible thing, but I think
the American public understands that when you're fighting a war against terrorists, when you're
fighting for the security of this country, that sacrifice is something that you have to expect."

But the lack of a connection between what is happening in Iraq and the security of this country is precisely
what's in dispute. Illusory WMD, the Niger-uranium forgeries, the nonexistent Iraqi connection to Al
Qaeda � who cooked up this stew of disinformation, and fed it to the White House?

The President, by all accounts, bypassed the broccoli proffered by the CIA and the State Department, and
instead went for the rich confections conjured up by the Office of Special Plans (OSP).

Set up by Paul Wolfowitz, and run by Abram Shulsky, classical scholar and intelligence expert, the OSP
may turn out to be the last domino to fall in the ongoing Washington blame game. First it was George Tenet
who nobly offered to fall on his sword, by formally taking full responsibility for not deleting the reference
to Niger uranium from the President's state of the union speech. But everyone knew better. Then it was
Robert Joseph who was slated to take the fall, but he was soon replaced by Stephen Hadley. Now it looks
like Condolezza Rice is the latest sacrificial offering. But we ought not to stop there�.

At the end of the paper trail lurk the real authors of this war, and it's high time we flushed them out. Let's
find out exactly who knew what, and when. Let's dig all the way down to the core of the War Party,
and find out just who forged those documents that all the intelligence available to the President could not
unmask as phony. Seymour Hersh has already given us an overview, and others have provided more
details, of just how the OSP operated � and its foreign connections. The Democrats in congress are
calling for a full-scale investigation. The hunt is on. Tally ho!

Like squid who sense danger, the war weenies are emitting clouds of obfuscating rhetoric and lying
rationalizations, like this effusion from Wolfowitz:

"The nature of terrorism is that intelligence about terrorism is murky. I think the lesson of 9/11 is
that if you're not prepared to act on the basis of murky intelligence, then you're going to have to act
after the fact, and after the fact now means after horrendous things have happened to this country."

More lies, and threats � that's the only recourse the War Party has now that we're hot on their trail.
Wolfowitz is right about the murkiness of the circumstances that permitted a small cabal to drag a reluctant
nation into war. The murk, however, is being generated by this administration and its amen corner in the
media. Let's shine the light of a congressional investigation into the cave-like darkness of the
decision-making process so we can see, at last, the buried truth.





Re: I could'nt of said it better
Message #52227 posted by pisshead80 (Info) July 28, 2003 08:36:16 ET
In Reply to post #52223: Re: I could'nt of said it better posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 05:42:16 ET

yes, and did you know that years of playing darts leads to some type of horrible arm disease?

yes. so i propose that we make doing anything in a bar or restaurant illegal unless you're sitting down and sitting straight, you don't want to hurt your back.

and then we can have sensors in the chairs (like the kind i heard they thought about putting in airplanes) and if you don't move around enough and have good circulation, the waitress can come by and force you to move, or she can call the police on you.




Re: I could'nt of said it better
Message #52228 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 08:51:08 ET
In Reply to post #52227: Re: I could'nt of said it better posted by pisshead80 (Info) July 28, 2003 08:36:16 ET

"yes, and did you know that years of playing darts leads to some type of horrible arm disease?

yes. so i propose that we make doing anything in a bar or restaurant illegal unless you're sitting down and sitting straight, you don't want to hurt your back.

and then we can have sensors in the chairs (like the kind i heard they thought about putting in airplanes) and if you don't move around enough and have good circulation, the waitress can come by and force you to move, or she can call the police on you. "

....
..but somehow,,liquor seems to be immune from any of these new bans or restrictions!)?(
..for some reason,,we dont see any "this is your brain on liquor" commercials,,
,,or "buy liquor,,support terrorism" things!,,
..in fact,it's quite the contrary,
,beer and booze commercials are about as commonly rare as a Torog republican! ..)?(




..hang on ,,disabilities???
Message #52229 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 10:13:13 ET


WASHINGTON, July 19 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following is the text of the
President's weekly radio address to the nation:

THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. This weekend marks the 13th anniversary of
the Americans With Disability Act, one of the great compassionate acts of
American government. Since becoming law, the ADA has helped to improve the
quality of life for more than 50,000 million Americans with physical and mental
disabilities. As a result, it is easier today for people with disabilities to find a job, to
enter public buildings, and to live more independently in their communities. These
are all welcome changes in American life.

Many citizens have dedicated themselves to serving the interest of persons with
disabilities, and some of them are here with me at the White House. I am joined by
members of the President's Committee on Mental Retardation. The men and
women on this committee include people with disabilities, as well as parents,
teachers, health care workers, and advocates. They recently voted to change the
committee's name to the President's Committee for People with Intellectual
Disabilities. And I was pleased to sign an executive order instituting that change.

There is much more we can do to assure that Americans with disabilities are treated
with dignity and respect. In 2001, I announced the New Freedom Initiative, to
further promote the full participation of people with disabilities in all areas of
society. As part of the New Freedom Initiative we're giving states funding to help
people with disabilities commute to work, or purchase equipment that allows them
to work from home. We are promoting home ownership for people with disabilities,
and educating builders about the need for more accessible rental housing.

We are working with Congress to provide record levels of funding for special
education programs, and to make sure the money is used to provide the most help
to the most children. And we are making government websites more accessible to
people with disabilities so that they can more easily find information about services
and programs of the federal government. We're also focused on providing better
care to people with mental illness. I'm committed to making sure people get the
treatment and support they need and don't fall through the cracks.

My administration continues to work with states to ensure full implementation of
the Supreme Court's Olnstead decision. That decision rightly mandates that
individuals with disabilities who can receive support and treatment in a community
setting should be given an opportunity to live close to their families and friends
whenever possible. People with disabilities now have more freedom to do
productive work and live independent lives. We're making good progress toward
ensuring that persons with disabilities know the American Dream is meant for
them. With changes in old ways of thinking, the development of new
technologies, and the federal government's firm commitment to equality, more
and more people with disabilities continue to become full participants in the
American life.

Thank you for listening.

END




..OK,,I cant blame ya...
Message #52230 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 10:25:13 ET
In Reply to post #52229: ..hang on ,,disabilities??? posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 10:13:13 ET

..I cant blame you if you didnt actually read the presidents radio address in the previous post.
..I was not a joke..It was taken exactly as it appeared on USnewswire.
..did you notice anything strange?,,
.well I sure as fuck did!!!...How bout:

"... Since becoming law, the ADA has helped to improve the quality of life for more than 50,000 million Americans with physical and mental disabilities. .."

..Oh...OK,,,50,000 million...so,,,let me see here,,1000 million is 1 Billion,,so I guess there are 50 Billion "..Americans with physical and mental disabilities."
.
..well I'll be dipped in shit!




Re: take off the ",..." at the end of it. nfm
Message #52231 posted by sara (Info) July 28, 2003 10:43:43 ET
In Reply to post #52207: Re: take off the ",..." at the end of it. nfm posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 27, 2003 15:46:37 ET

copy,paste,makes the link itsself.a think



Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws
Message #52232 posted by budstar714 (Info) July 28, 2003 13:12:16 ET
In Reply to post #52200: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 27, 2003 06:17:15 ET

that sucks i lived in calif. when they started that shit (not
now) thought alot bout it... if i had a bar lets say couldn't
i call it a private club and say fuck the state???? curious




Re: The Real Dangers Of Smokeing, The gange!
Message #52233 posted by budstar714 (Info) July 28, 2003 13:18:40 ET
In Reply to post #52208: The Real Dangers Of Smokeing, The gange! posted by purplehazemaster (Info) July 27, 2003 17:32:21 ET

let me tell ive smoked bout 30 yrs son is 21 when he
was born 10 lbs.11 ozs know its bad but my wife
smoked during preg.all the way so you tell me my boy
always been healthy........




This is what Peaceful Toker and Torag like to do
Message #52234 posted by ALucidCannabisNexus (Info) July 28, 2003 15:41:22 ET

The picture below explains

Click Here to View 52234.jpg
View 52234.jpg



Re: Surprise, more lies from bush!!!
Message #52235 posted by chamillionaire (Info) July 28, 2003 15:42:26 ET
In Reply to post #52219: Re: Surprise, more lies from bush!!! posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 27, 2003 23:16:57 ET

Please post more for us peaceful toker!For it is very much wanted.Why am i not surprised that torog hasnt posted in this thread?



Voila... GI's become Kurds
Message #52236 posted by spitkah (Info) July 28, 2003 17:20:38 ET
In Reply to post #52229: ..hang on ,,disabilities??? posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 10:13:13 ET

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=782603#Post782603


Der Fuhrer Caesar Bush will be just like Caligula and appoint one of his horses on his Texas ranch as his own personal counsel. hail Emperor Bush, Sieg heil, Sieg heil

Springtime for Bush und America! God bless George Bush and America... to hell with everybody else!




Government Coverup of Flesh Eating Bacteria?
Message #52237 posted by Larry Mo and Hemp (Info) July 28, 2003 17:36:19 ET

Guys, have any of you heard of this?

http://www.stopthebacteria.com

Without a doubt the creepiest thing I've ever seen. The pics are...ugghh... see for yourself. And hey sign, the petition. Bush covering something up? Shocker.

Flesh Eating bacteria, man! As if I needed something else to worry about.

Larry




Re: Government Coverup of Flesh Eating Bacteria?
Message #52238 posted by spitkah (Info) July 28, 2003 18:28:41 ET
In Reply to post #52237: Government Coverup of Flesh Eating Bacteria? posted by Larry Mo and Hemp (Info) July 28, 2003 17:36:19 ET

you have my vote for the greatest user name ever. kudos

oh, yeah fuck the flesheating bacteria, too. Bush already has
extracted his pound of flesh




go here to help or stop griping
Message #52239 posted by IamN2pot (Info) July 28, 2003 18:50:46 ET

This is what you can do to help. http://www.petitiononline.com/Legalize/petition.html



Re: Torogs warrior spirit
Message #52240 posted by bezeug (Info) July 28, 2003 18:55:45 ET
In Reply to post #52202: Re: Torogs warrior spirit posted by sara (Info) July 27, 2003 06:32:37 ET

sa-ra you´ve proven your warrior spirit. ....isnt that fucking right??? answer the question!!!



Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws
Message #52241 posted by ismellbacon (Info) July 28, 2003 19:02:28 ET
In Reply to post #52216: Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 27, 2003 22:10:48 ET

Man, second hand smoke is not in the same league as breathing asbestos or that other crap dipshit. No one ever died from it, and if anyone told you they did...they're lying to you. I'm not ashemed I smoke...in fact, here's "a nasty blue cloud right in your big ugly face ismelldicksweat ha ha ha...good one

Wow a fucking moron! Go outside junkie. Don't pretend you have some secret knowledge the surgen general dosen't have. You are an idiot if you think 2nd hand smoke dosent kill, but i see lots of idiots blowing smoke on their children. Take your crack pipe outside, you arent welcome in civilised society.

It's just something ya gotta get used to,,(but I do agree,that a bar is a place for cigarettes!,what's next,,booze-less bars??)

Its not a place for cigs. Just because the brainwashed masses see joe camel and cant help but follow, that dosent mean all people are stupid, or that smart people are not allowed to drink.


BUT,,I say,,Gimme a fuckin' break!,,If someone is out drinkin' at some bar,and they are
complaining about the cigarette smoke,,then they can go home and get drunk in their own
anal retentive smoke free place!..

You can leave too, bars are for drinking.

think that these 'second hand smoke' people,,are fucking idiots!..
.this is not to say,that I dont somewhat agree with a 'no smoking' thin g in certain places where people HAVE to go,,but when it comes to bars and such,,,the law becomes idiotic and fucked...Again!..If you want to go out drinkin',then I have very little sympathy for those who complain about smoke in bars!,,go to a smoke free bar,or buy a bottle,and go home and get plastered !If you are too much of a wimp to withstand a bit of tobacco smoke at a bar,then why dont you ask your fuckin liver what it thinks of the booze you are forcing on it!,,floating your gizzard in alcohol aint no healthy virtue,,(but I guess drinkin' is not equivilent to smoking in this way)?)



Listen faggot, this "wimp" could knock your old half a lung ass out in one punch. I have the RIGHT to go to any bar i want. No one is forced to drink in any bar.


and these are usually the same shitheads,who will get into their SUV,and be on their cell phone,and cause you to miss the lite.)?(


Do you even hear yourself? Anyone who dosent want to breath poison is a yuppie hypocrite? Wow its funny to read what you write when other people do it. Any generalisation from right wing anti war types and you jump on them, but when YOU do it, its just some insight.


Second hand smoke loudmouth idiots are doing more harm to themselves with blind,misdirected concern/stress ,than any second hand whiff of tobacco smoke could ever do to compromise their health!,,

Did you do a study? Are you a scientist? Or do you know absolutley nothing?


You wanna talk about unhealthy air? ,well why dont we start talkin' about deisel engines,which are mostly exempt from pollution control.Most of your second hand smoke squackers are probably drivin' big ol' bogart SUVs

I ride a bike. And take the subway.


I like seeing all the little no willpower losers try to justify poisoning my air. Do realise what the air quality is like in smoky bar? You might as well be in an industrial smoke stack. It cause lung disease in non smokers. This isnt some conspiracy to take away your freedom its a fact.




Re: It's a book!..."Too Young"..
Message #52242 posted by peaceful toker (Info) July 28, 2003 19:20:09 ET
In Reply to post #52224: Re: It's a book!..."Too Young".. posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 05:57:02 ET

Be Here Now? Ram Das?



..I smell asshole....
Message #52243 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 29, 2003 00:49:22 ET
In Reply to post #52241: Re: N.Y. State's Bullshit Smoking Laws posted by ismellbacon (Info) July 28, 2003 19:02:28 ET


.."..Listen faggot, this "wimp" could knock your old half a lung ass out in one punch. I have the RIGHT to go to any bar i want. No one is forced to drink in any bar."..

..WOW Ismellbacon!,,them are some serious words.....do I detect a note of bitterness,or perhaps hate,aimed in my direction?.I guess you got some 'issues',concerning this discussion.)?(
..even if I was a "faggot",your simpleton neanderthal tirade would not bother me, ,,and, as far as making some weird-ass cheap shot about my lung,,all I can say to that,is that it's a shame that you have stooped so low!...
..Someday,your fuckin' ass will be in the hospital,almost dead,,and then,you will remember what you said to me.:

"..Listen faggot, this "wimp" could knock your old half a lung ass out in one punch. I have the RIGHT to
go to any bar i want. No one is forced to drink in any bar."..
.
..and no one is forced to hang out in a bar that has cigarette smokers in it.!
.If you dont like the smokey bar,,then go to some other fuckin' fluffy anal retentive bar that has a smoke free area,,
..and dont be callin' me names because you cant hack a bit of smoke...
..fuck,,I might not like the smell of bacon..)?(,,(and I'm curious as to what the "ismellbacon" name refers to?..cops/pigs?...
.
..anyway,,take it easy my friend...I will never again be smokin' the wrong kind of smoke..and I agree, you have the RIGHT to do whatever the fuck you want.,,the same way everyone else does!




Re: It's a book!..."Too Young"..
Message #52244 posted by tokendaddy (Info) July 29, 2003 00:49:27 ET
In Reply to post #52224: Re: It's a book!..."Too Young".. posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 05:57:02 ET

I was born in 58. No actually I don't really consider myself that old. No I never read "Be Here Now" what's it about?



Corporatism. Danger of glaucoma from wearing ties!
Message #52245 posted by eco (Info) July 29, 2003 01:07:06 ET

Cannabis helps alleviate glaucoma! Cannabis usually prevents the wearing of ties by enlightened people too. :)

For health links about dangers of glaucoma from wearing ties:
http://corporatism.tripod.com and
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y and
http://members.fortunecity.com/multi19


Click Here to View 52245.jpg
View 52245.jpg



Re: ..I smell asshole....
Message #52246 posted by apple pie420 (Info) July 29, 2003 01:14:58 ET
In Reply to post #52243: ..I smell asshole.... posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 29, 2003 00:49:22 ET

fuck N.Y. and theyre smoking laws

i spit in the general direction of any smoke-free facility

~*Applez*~




Having worked , with counter counter measure
Message #52247 posted by Sanclem (Info) July 29, 2003 02:36:29 ET
In Reply to post #52226: ..thick..but worth the time to read... posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 28, 2003 08:29:28 ET

It a large joke is how the goverment shows stuff. In 1963 during the Cuban thing.Pre new tech , we could see door locks and the position of the doors. I ask you a very simple question, you make min. wage of about 50 bucks a month. Now take this package and hide it for 50,000, would you do it. Damn right, the big problem is where is it now. You find a box of silvery metal, weighs a little more then expected , not gold , not sliver, not alm. Nuclear grade tititaium (spelling) about 1000 bucks a pound on the open market, about 20,000 a pound on the black market. Its like the joke do you have a nude picture of you wife in the back yard. What do you want to pay for it. Note old teck. could only read sub head lines on a news paper. New stuff will tell you if they have tooth decay, with a .0000001 d. C. Note common fact a 100 watt bulb is very easy to see for most space scopes. If the public was to find out what we can see, the dumb bastards would panic. People are so stupid that there is a reflector on the moon to prove we were there. Its like the Concorde it has bail out proceedures. Most of the people on the filight do not read it, they know. During the Clinton thing, more people cared about him getting a blow job. Than killin of Americans and others. Pres get head while many get dead.



vote once or twice ,
Message #52248 posted by Sanclem (Info) July 29, 2003 02:40:52 ET
In Reply to post #52225: ..obvious?.simple?,,idea about voting machines. posted by dana west (Info) July 28, 2003 08:05:49 ET

I have seen non Americas vote, I have see people with a I Q of 60 vote, I have seen people vote that did not know who was pres. Go to a old folks home. World I.d. card with finger print and dna, rna, blood type , blood type sub. Will work except for sports figures, and American China or American Indians, one an the same. Minority O yea 5 billion. To many flat ass stupid people. Casteration and nuder tha stupid bastards.



..More Liberation and freedom for Iraq..
Message #52249 posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 29, 2003 03:38:52 ET



28 July 2003: (The Independent) Obsessed with capturing Saddam Hussein, American soldiers turned a botched raid
on a house in the Mansur district of Baghdad yesterday into a bloodbath, opening fire on scores of Iraqi civilians in a
crowded street and killing up to 11, including two children, their mother and crippled father. At least one civilian car
caught fire, cremating its occupants.

The vehicle carrying the two children and their mother and father was riddled by bullets as it approached a razor-wired
checkpoint outside the house.

Amid the fury generated among the largely middle-class residents of Mansur - by ghastly coincidence, the killings were
scarcely 40 metres from the houses in which 16 civilians died when the Americans tried to kill Saddam towards the end
of the war in April - whatever political advantages were gained by the killing of Saddam's sons have been squandered.
A doctor at the Yarmouk hospital, which received four of the dead, turned on me angrily last night, shouting: "If an
American came to my emergency room, maybe I would kill him."

Two civilians, both believed to have been driving with their families, were brought to the Yarmouk, one with abdominal
wounds and the other with "his brain outside of his head", according to another doctor.

At the scene of the killings, there was pandemonium. While US troops were loading the bullet-shattered cars on trucks
- and trying to stop cameramen filming the carnage - crowds screamed abuse at them. One American soldier a few feet
from me climbed into the seat of his
Humvee, threw his helmet on the floor of the vehicle and shouted: "Shit! Shit!"

There was no doubt about the target: the home of Sheikh Rabia Mohamed Habib, a prominent tribal leader who had
met Saddam but who was not even in his house when the Americans stormed it. One report says they killed a guard as
they entered.

"The Americans searched the house completely, very roughly," Sheikh Habib said. "It seems they thought Saddam
Hussein was inside." It appears the killings started as the troops were searching the
building and as motorists approached the barbed wire which the soldiers had placed without warning across the road.
Witnesses said the first car contained at least two men. "The second contained two children about 10, their mother
and their father who had been wounded in the Iran-Iraq war - he was a cripple," a local shopkeeper told me. "They all
died. The man's legs were cut in half by the bullets," he added. A third car then approached the Americans, who
opened fire again. One of the occupants
fled, but the other two remained in the vehicle and were killed.

When another car arrived US troops riddled it with more bullets and it burst into flames. It is believed that two people
were inside and both were burnt to death. "The Americans didn't try to help the civilians they had shot, not once," a
witness said. "They let the car burn and left the bodies where they lay, even the children. It was we who had to take
them to the hospitals."

Yet again, false informers, ill-trained American soldiers who appeared to exercise no fire control and a lack of military
planning has created a tragedy among the people the Americans claimed to be 'liberating' from Saddam Hussein only
15 weeks ago. Last night, there were reports from the southern city of Karbala that three men had been shot dead by
American troops during a demonstration.

..By Robert Fisk




Islam's Image Problem
Message #52250 posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 07:02:18 ET


ISLAM'S IMAGE PROBLEM
New York Post ^ | 7/29/03 | DANIEL PIPES


July 29, 2003 -- A NOTE FROM THE EDITORS: CAIR, a group discussed in this column, has campaigned to derail Daniel Pipes' nomination to the board of the U.S. Institute of Peace.

AMERICANS are increasingly negative about Islam and Muslims - or so found an important survey that the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press published last week.

Perhaps the most dramatic change has been the jump in Americans who find that Islam, more than other religions, is likely "to encourage violence among its believers." In March 2002, 25 percent of the sample advocated this view. Now 44 percent do.

Other trends concerning Islam are also negative:

American Muslims: In November 2001, they had positive views from 59 percent of the public. That number fell to 54 percent in March 2002 and now stands at 51 percent.

Presidential candidate: Americans are much more disinclined to vote for a Muslim for U.S. president than a candidate of another religion: 31 percent say no to a Muslim, versus 20 percent to an evangelical Christian, 15 percent to a Catholic and 14 percent to a Jew.



Shared values: Asked if "the Muslim religion and your own religion have a lot in common," 31 percent answered affirmatively in November 2001, 27 percent in March 2002, and just 22 percent this year.

What explains this increasingly worried attitude? Clearly, much of it follows on the on-going reality of terrorism, hate-filled statements and other problems tied to militant Islam around the globe. But some of it also results from the problems concerning militant Islam's control of the institutions of American Muslim life.

Whether it be the imam at the local mosque, the principal of the Islamic school, the Muslim chaplain in a prison or the armed forces, the editor of an Islamic publishing house or the spokesman for a national group, the American Muslim scene presents an almost uniform picture of apologetics for terrorism, conspiracy theories about Jews and demands for Muslim privilege.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations, with 17 offices across North America, has emerged as the powerhouse of Muslim groups and best exemplifies this problem. Consider the sentiments of its leadership:

* Omar M. Ahmad (chairman) says suicide bombers "kill themselves for Islam" and so are not terrorists.

* Nihad Awad (executive director) proclaims his "support" for Hamas, the Palestinian terrorist group.

* Ibrahim Hooper (spokesman) declares, "I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future."

Nor does CAIR just excuse violence. Two of its former employees, Bassem Khafagi and Ismail Royer, have recently been arrested on charges related to terrorism. And a member of CAIR's advisory board, Siraj Wahhaj, was named by the U.S. attorney as one of the "unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators" in an attempted terrorist assault.

Despite this ugly record, the U.S. government widely accepts CAIR as representing Islam. The White House invites it to functions, the State Department links to its Web page and Democratic senators rely on its research. In New York City, the mayor appoints its general counsel to the Human Rights Commission and the police department hosts its "sensitivity training" seminar. In Florida, public schools invite it to teach "diversity awareness."

The national media broadcasts its views. Which Muslim, for example, did the Los Angeles Times quote responding to the Pew report? Why, Ibrahim Hooper, of course.

CAIR, in brief, has established itself as the voice of American Islam, thereby battering Islam's noble reputation among Americans.

Moderate Muslims, of course, reject CAIR's representing them.

* The late Seifeldin Ashmawy, publisher of the New Jersey-based Voice of Peace, dismissed CAIR as the champion of "extremists whose views do not represent Islam."

* Tashbih Sayyed of the Los Angeles-based Council for Democracy and Tolerance accuses CAIR of being a "fifth column" in the United States.

* Jamal Hasan of the same organization discerns CAIR's goal as spreading "Islamic hegemony the world over by hook or by crook."

Improving Islam's reputation will require two steps: that the great institutions of American life reject all contact with CAIR and like groups, while moderate Muslims build sound organizations, ones that neither apologize for terrorism nor seek "the government of the United States to be Islamic."

(Technical note: The Pew study, "Religion and Politics: Contention and Consensus," was conducted June 24-July 8. Replies have a 95 percent confidence level and accuracies of +/- 2.5 percent or +/- 3.5 percent.)

Daniel Pipes is director of the Middle East Forum and author of "Militant Islam Reaches America."




Re: go here to help or stop griping
Message #52251 posted by sara (Info) July 29, 2003 07:36:21 ET
In Reply to post #52239: go here to help or stop griping posted by IamN2pot (Info) July 28, 2003 18:50:46 ET

Who,s griping??



Re: Islam's Image Problem
Message #52252 posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 07:45:39 ET
In Reply to post #52250: Islam's Image Problem posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 07:02:18 ET


When organizations like CAIR-make the kind of statements that are attributed to them as outlined in this article-it proves me RIGHT about the un-trustworthy nature of muslims-wherever they're found.

Radical elements of Islam are encouraged to spread throughout America by groups such as CAIR-and Washington's naive as usual in regards to the true nature of Islam-I can only hope that behind the scenes-the Bush admin has no delusions about the goals of radical muslims-sadly..they continue to give them legitamacy and the benefit of the doubt.

I will continue to believe that it's prudent for communities to keep a close eye on the activities of muslims-each city and town-should allocate HUMINT and ELINT resources to monitor mosques and madrassa's. The cost of developing and placing the surveillance assets could be easily paid for with a slight increase in local sales tax rates.







Re: ..More Liberation and freedom for Iraq..
Message #52253 posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:03:33 ET
In Reply to post #52249: ..More Liberation and freedom for Iraq.. posted by LeftyToker (Info) July 29, 2003 03:38:52 ET


Given the situation in Iraq-it's a wonder our troops don't just open fire on every civilian in sight that looks like a threat. You'd think by now-the ragheads would learn not to drive into a military situation-our troops are gittin itchy trigger fingers-because of the constant attacks against them.

If it was Russia,China or Iran, there in Iraq-they wouldn't give a damn about civilian casualties-and would probably conduct reprisals for non-cooperation.




Re: Islam's Image Problem
Message #52254 posted by sara (Info) July 29, 2003 08:04:19 ET
In Reply to post #52250: Islam's Image Problem posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 07:02:18 ET

Omar M. Ahmad (chairman) says suicide bombers "kill themselves for Islam" and so are not terrorists. Bull fukin shit,they kill themselves cause their lands under occupation.Fuck all to do with religion.Every second line is either a lie,or unsubstanciated.Give us the fuckin facts/truth or just dont bother




Re: Islam's Image Problem
Message #52255 posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:19:01 ET
In Reply to post #52254: Re: Islam's Image Problem posted by sara (Info) July 29, 2003 08:04:19 ET


So..are you saying that all religion is a lie-and that this article is one big lie ?

On the day that the muslims finally come for you-are you going to convert-or just tell them their religion is a lie ?

Do you really think they'll pause to reflect on that ?





Out of Their Minds
Message #52256 posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:44:23 ET


Out OF THEIR MINDS (Gay Highschool)
New York Post ^ | 7/29/03


July 29, 2003 -- Two decades after opening as a small alternative program, the Harvey Milk School will debut this fall as the nation's first fully accredited public high school for gay students, with enrollment meant to triple by September 2004.
You thought there was a municipal budget crisis?

Obviously not.

Judgment crisis is more like it.

It's not as if Mayor Bloomberg and Schools Chancellor Joel Klein don't have enough on their plates already, attempting to bring order out of the chaos that is the New York City public school system.

They had to start this wholly unnecessary fight.

However well-intentioned, they've essentially created a segregated high school - 49 years after such institutions quite properly fell out of constitutional favor in the United States.



And on specious grounds, to boot.

When the prototype academy was launched in 1984, the idea was to protect students who had dropped out of school - or were about to - because of anti-gay harassment.

We thought it was a bad idea then.

It still is.

The establishment of a school reserved exclusively for gays reeks of the "separate but equal" segregation that was outlawed by the U.S. Supreme Court a half-century ago.

Back then, southern governors and others infamously attempted to halt school integration by arguing that black students admitted to white schools risked physical danger.

Keeping them separated "with their own kind" was the best way to protect such students, it was said.

Indeed, just try to imagine the uproar if it were to be argued that allowing flamboyantly gay students into a regular public school was disruptive - that they had to be isolated for the common good.

Besides, it's not as if gay students are the only ones who face harassment.

As Mike Long, chairman of the state Conservative Party, rightly observes, "Maybe we should have schools for chubby kids who get picked on. Maybe all kids who wear glasses should have special schools. It's ridiculous."

Long also raises legitimate questions about the school's curriculum: "Is there a different way to teach homosexuals? Is there gay math?"

Indeed, the Hetrick-Martin Institute - the gay social-services agency that has long run and financed the school - from the outset adopted a curriculum that was meant to teach "our kids . . . the history of our people."

But where does that road end?

In ultra-litigious New York City, it's a safe bet that the fragmentation won't stop with the Harvey Milk School.

If sexual orientation and/or lifestyle justify a segregated school, why not life experiences?

How about a school for Haitian kids?

Russian immigrants?

Are Bloomberg and Klein prepared to accommodate such demands?

As a matter of fact, where did the Department of Education find the millions needed to renovate the Milk school?

Sure, IBM will "donate" one laptop computer for every three Harvey Milk students - a far more generous ratio than other students enjoy.

Where's the justice in that?

There is none.

This is special-interest pandering at its most base.

If it is not unconstitutional, then it is un-American.

It is a distraction from the real task at hand - rescuing a school system that Bloomberg and Klein have just torn away from the brigands and boodlers who ran it into ruin.

It is, in fact, insane.




Re: Out of Their Minds
Message #52257 posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:59:58 ET
In Reply to post #52256: Out of Their Minds posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:44:23 ET


I can only hope that opening this school will highlight why it's wrong to give special rights and considerations for a fraction of the populace that bases it's lifestyle on the practice of deviant sex.

Obese children and nerds get picked on more than gays do-the very least we could do-is to establish a school for these kids-so they can be "protected" from bullies as well.

Maybe we should do something really radical-like establishing a school for those kids who simply want to learn-and not be swept up and exploited for every liberal and gay cause imaginable-wow !..what a concept !




Re: Out of Their Minds
Message #52258 posted by Hattusili (Info) July 29, 2003 09:52:39 ET
In Reply to post #52257: Re: Out of Their Minds posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:59:58 ET

Damn! I actually agreed with the second paragraph of your last post. LOL!

Hey; if there were a school for queers; at least your kids wouldn't have to associate with them Torog.


ONE




Re: ..More Liberation and freedom for Iraq..
Message #52259 posted by hydrosmoke (Info) July 29, 2003 11:02:05 ET
In Reply to post #52253: Re: ..More Liberation and freedom for Iraq.. posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:03:33 ET

Torog, is there any way that you will disapprove of the disgusting situation in Iraq? What would it take for you to admit that America is completely wrong and evil in this circumstance? Now you're excusing the killing of innocent civillians, and even blaming them. How would you feel if your family rolled up to your house as it was being raided by the SWAT team and the National Guard, and as they approached the police barricade, their car was mercilessly torn up by rounds of ammunition. How would you feel to see your little daughter who you talk about ripped to shreds by the bullets of an itchy fingered soldier? And for what? She wasn't even in the middle of the action. Her and her mom just rolled up to the barricade, wondering why they couldn't get home. Well, I guess you'd think by now the crackers would learn not to drive into a drug bust, our troops are gittin itchy fingered because of all the gang activity around drugs, and shoot outs with police. When will you start to care about innocent life Torog? And as a side note, how many people do you think Saddam put to death every day? I'm willing to wager that it was a good deal less than the amount killed every day by American troops. How oppressive was his government? I'll bet that they didn't conduct raids nearly of the magnitude that our troops do, and guess what? Saddam allowed, and even encouraged his people to own arms, the American troops do not allow this, and are disarming the populace of Iraq. So who were they more oppressed under, Saddam, or America? The answer is very clearly America.

Hydro




Re: Islam's Image Problem
Message #52260 posted by hydrosmoke (Info) July 29, 2003 11:06:30 ET
In Reply to post #52255: Re: Islam's Image Problem posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:19:01 ET

No, it doesn't look like she's saying that all religion is a lie, I don't know where that came from. What she's saying is that it's a big lie when people try to claim that the Muslim fundamentalists are killing people because of religion. They are not. They are killing people because they are fighting a war to end US and Israeli occupation and oppression of their land and people.

Hydro




Re: Out of Their Minds
Message #52261 posted by hydrosmoke (Info) July 29, 2003 11:18:55 ET
In Reply to post #52258: Re: Out of Their Minds posted by Hattusili (Info) July 29, 2003 09:52:39 ET

This school is a terrible idea. I don't think there's really too much else to be said that hasn't been said already. But I'll highlight my views anyway. The United States Supreme court outlawed the segregation of public schools and took apart the seperate but equal falsehood a while ago. Now if they want gay private schools, that's their own business, but this is completely unconstitutional for state funded public schools to be segregated. That's the first problem, and the problem which makes it legally wrong for this to happen.
My next problem with this is on the grounds of further corruption of the youth who will attend this school. Creating a school on the basis of a sexual behavior is crazy. What if there was a school for children who like S&M, or bondage, what kind of a place would this be, think about it. Don't you think that the deviant behaviors the children already engage in will be greatly magnified? If you have any gatheringplace where people with a common interest hang out with each other for 6 hours a day, and that interest is promoted in that place, there will be an increase in that interest. So if you have an S&M school, what will happen? The children in that school will be even further entrapped in that lifestyle and involved in more activities of that kind. The same with a school for homosexuals, or for any kind of behavior. What if there was a school for bud smokers? Don't you agree that those students in that school would end up smoking a lot more bud than if they were attending a normal school? So then why are we creating an institution that will increase socially deviant and personally destructive behavior? Peace.

Hydro




Re: Islam's Image Problem
Message #52262 posted by sara (Info) July 29, 2003 13:32:42 ET
In Reply to post #52255: Re: Islam's Image Problem posted by Torog (Info) July 29, 2003 08:19:01 ET

Yep,all religions a lie,bullshit,crap a con.As for muslims comin for me,who do you mean???,valli fae the kebab shop,baram fae the indians???Am more worried about your fucked up country more than any muslim mate.Heres a link for you,go read it carefully,as a said before,the ones you need to worry about are in charge of usa right now,and check out what they say about gentiles,and give your self a good hard boot up the arse and get wi the programme man



lmao
Message #52263 posted by Lauren (Info) July 29, 2003 13:35:27 ET
In Reply to post #52225: ..obvious?.simple?,,idea about voting machines. posted by dana west (Info) July 28, 2003 08:05:49 ET

Fuckeder!!! lolololol
thats good.


everyone should make up their own words once in a while!




Re: Out of Their Minds
Message #52264 posted by sara (Info) July 29, 2003 13:46:32 ET
In Reply to post #52261: R